Great show!

The discussion of organic vs pesticide assisted farming usually only covers the effects of pesticide or lack of effects on the consumer, but a lot of people choose organic because of assumed health risks to farm workers who are exposed to agricultural pesticides.

I’m pretty ignorant about the subject from that end and would like to hear more. A quick gander at the abstract on Pubmed (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11783860) and The National Center for Farmworkers Health (http://www.ncfh.org/?pid=4&page=6) might indicate reason for some concern from that angle.

One of the major reasons DDT was so rapidly and widely accepted was its enormously greater safety for applicators compared to previous products such as nicotine sulfate, lead arsenate, and Paris Green.
    I have a friend I’ve known only in middle age who is a cancer victim. She is a health food obsessive. I always thought it bizarre she attributes her cancer to a few parts per billion of agricultural chemicals and gives never a thought to the pounds of illegal drugs she consumed in youth.
    People cannot know enough about most subjects to independently evaluate the evidence. They only know who they trust. I’ve learned this doing Creation debates and tussling with political liberals. Most people I know, know less about science in general and climatology in particular than I do. They all have more definite opinions about political climate controversies than I do. They either do or don’t trust the left. I know there is strong evidence for anthropogenic warming, but the proposed political responses all carry enormously unfavorable cost-benefit ratios, if in fact they can do any significant good at all. Knowing how much the left has at stake in this should make anyone skeptical.
      All strains of the extreme left have been disdainful of truth, masters and fanatics for deception and manipulation. Much of the general public is finally waking up to this. The greatest of con men can over reach. The chickens are coming home to roost.
    Logic is not taught in public school or higher education. All students get is political indoctrination, self-esteem, and entertainment. A public armed with logic would destroy politics as we know it, the entire advertising industry and all that depends on it, and ruin everything for everyone who “counts.”
    The aggressive - abusive - repetitiveness of advertising and the abundance of idiotic email forwards tells me people believe the familiar without examination. I’ve lost friends by persistent dubunking of email forwards. Reminding people that they have sent the same item a year ago really enrages them. Sharing and possession of beliefs in common is a social or relationship phenomenon. People want to believe, not to know.

Just a quick question.  Why shouldn’t the military be the most trusted institution in the country?

rg, the organic food industry has been plagued with E. coli 0157, primarily because of it’s use of organic fertilizer, especially the spinach.

Just a quick question.  Why shouldn’t the military be the most trusted institution in the country?

what are the other choices?

what are the other choices?

The DMV maybe?

Great podcast, I listened to it twice to make sure I didn’t miss anything.
Great job, Chris! :-)

Obviously this is close to my heart, so I look forward to listening to over the coming weekend.

Thanks again for the new format and style of the show.

The bane of all EVIDENCE!! Denialism!! OH NO!!

No the bane of all evidence is ALTERNATIVE EVIDENCE!!
“Denial” is another of those quasi-pschological terms that describes no activity whatever. Sort of like the ridiculous “schizophrenia” and “bipolar” as diagnostic terms.

There is “relative truth” - dependiing entirely on biases - and the much, much larger body of partial evidence termed “associations”.

So what is being denied??

The term “denial” is meaningless and juvenile, and is most notably used by those who are completely intolerant of opposing evidence to their juvenile explanations.

Great interview and great book.  Spector is a very intelligent man, but even so, I think he suffers from some blinders of his own.  For example, he discounts the use of organic food merely because of its lower yield than conventional agriculture.  However, this is a very simplistic view. 

When comparing relative merits of conventional vs organic, it is also necessary to take into account energy input, deleterious effects of monoculture crops, harmful effects of pesticides on the farmers who use them, the morality of CAFOs and other conventional ways to produce meat, and potential negative health effects of bovine growth hormone on humans and animals. 

It is also a straw man to compare organic food to conventional food without also discussing locally grown, and in-season produce as well.

@asanta: It is completely groundless to say that the organic industry is “plagued” with e coli any more so than conventional produce.

@asanta: It is completely groundless to say that the organic industry is “plagued” with e coli any more so than conventional produce.

‘Conventional produce’ has had it’s share of problems, but in my area, the organic market, especially spinach, has been the source of more recalls than any other fresh food produce I can think of.

The bane of all EVIDENCE!! Denialism!! OH NO!!

No the bane of all evidence is ALTERNATIVE EVIDENCE!!
“Denial” is another of those quasi-pschological terms that describes no activity whatever. Sort of like the ridiculous “schizophrenia” and “bipolar” as diagnostic terms.

There is “relative truth” - dependiing entirely on biases - and the much, much larger body of partial evidence termed “associations”.

So what is being denied??

The term “denial” is meaningless and juvenile, and is most notably used by those who are completely intolerant of opposing evidence to their juvenile explanations.

I find your post to be hyperbolic and juvenile, with enough straw men to light a large bonfire. Apparently, in your mind, anyone who does not agree with your specific views is an idiot.

the organic market, especially spinach, has been the source of more recalls than any other fresh food produce I can think of.

Maybe you are only remembering the hits and forgetting the misses.  Taking a look at the major e coli outbreaks over the last few years, I see beef, beef, beef, taco bell, cookie dough, and wayyyy at the bottom there is a single link to fresh spinach:

http://www.cdc.gov/ecoli/outbreaks.html

This is not to say that there are not occasional problems with the cleanliness and health of organic food, but it seems that it is far less than that of conventional food.  And the problems occur (I believe) not due to the organic nature of the food, but rather because of the industrial aspect of growing the food.

Food is food. The USDA has the duty to make sure that, as much as possible, marketed food is safe.

I have nothing against it, but I sometimes wonder if imported foods receive the same scrutiny.

Regardless, “contamination” by SERIOUSLY hazardous components have been hyped to absurdity.

I must have had a cast iron immune system, and a super-efficient liver since I made it to age 21 in AMISH COUNTRY.

Where organic fertilizer meant animal excreta. Insecticides, fungicides and herbicides were in the future.

The AMISH and other Plain farmers had as many as three different markets in the central city at one time.

The irony was that the 3 became just one as two couldn’t make it. Too many people just didn’t think the food was palatable given the way it was grown.

Food animals and their products - eggs, milk, etc - were likewise considered GROSS!
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There were possibly some cases of salmonella, but none that made the paper.

There were likely few cases of heavy metal toxicity - just as there is to this day.

Today, however, we have a gaggle of self-important paranoiacs who find DANGER just looking around. Proof is virtually non-existent.

Maybe third world countries have food-borne diseases - among many other diseases having nothing to do with ingestion.
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I saw a posting on a dental office the other day stating that people should avoid using perfumes, aftershaves, deodorants, etc, since their personnel ‘suffered’ “multiple-chemical sensitivity”!

No problem.

I certainly wouldn’t want to be treated by odoriferous pseudo-professionals!

the organic market, especially spinach, has been the source of more recalls than any other fresh food produce I can think of.

Maybe you are only remembering the hits and forgetting the misses.  Taking a look at the major e coli outbreaks over the last few years, I see beef, beef, beef, taco bell, cookie dough, and wayyyy at the bottom there is a single link to fresh spinach:

http://www.cdc.gov/ecoli/outbreaks.html

This is not to say that there are not occasional problems with the cleanliness and health of organic food, but it seems that it is far less than that of conventional food.  And the problems occur (I believe) not due to the organic nature of the food, but rather because of the industrial aspect of growing the food.

Sorry, I wasn’t being more specific. I’m talking about the produce market. Yes I remember the beef. I’ve taken care of many kids with HUS from E.coli infected beef. I also remember the cookie dough, that was a weird one….

I watched the interview last night on Colbert report and it would be clear to anyone with brains in their head that Michael Specter is sleeping with the corporate pharmaceutical industry- simply speaking, he is a whore. Let’s see - he wants you to be logical. Fair enough - I am, and that’s why for me someone with the journalism degree is no authority when it comes to my health. He has an arts degree, degree that teaches you how to write (BS mostly), not a health or a science degree, so listening to him when it comes to your nutrition is idiotic at best. Moving on.

Pesticides has been proven by SCIENCE (yes the same science he wants you to trust ) to have a multitude of nasty effects on your body (cancer is one of them, tsk tsk, yes I am looking at you - that poster who doubts that his friend got cancer from DDT - looky here http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071009082406.htm).

If you do the research, the evidence of harm caused by pesticides, GMO foods and other nasty things is right there, proven by science.

So clearly, Specter has some kind of agenda here - and this agenda cares very little about your health. Ironically, he is the true denier of real science, the same science that tells you to take vitamins, antioxidants, and drink juice. You, as a reader, can choose to believe him (a journalist without ANY science credentials) or real doctors and nutritionists who do have these credentials. The choice is yours and for me it’s pretty logical and clear. 

His talk about harm of organic farming to Africa is laughable at best. He should stick to writing about politics, instead of health. What a crock of BS.

rg, the organic food industry has been plagued with E. coli 0157, primarily because of it’s use of organic fertilizer, especially the spinach.

And your point is?

Ecoli has been found in Maple Leaf meat (not organic) here in Canada. Does that mean we should stop eating meat then?

I am sorry but you make no sense whatsoever…or are you only noticing the faults of organic industry and not conventional one?

For all the the real science deniers out there check out
http://www.aaemonline.org/gmopost.html

This is written by actual scientists (as in people who went to university and got their science degrees), not some guy with a writing degree with a penchant for hysteria.
I encourage everyone who actually cares about their health to research REAL SCIENCE and not read bogus books in nice covers written by a corporate whore.

For all the the real science deniers out there check out
http://www.aaemonline.org/gmopost.html

This is written by actual scientists (as in people who went to university and got their science degrees), not some guy with a writing degree with a penchant for hysteria.
I encourage everyone who actually cares about their health to research REAL SCIENCE and not read bogus books in nice covers written by a corporate whore.

I am a “REAL SCIENTIST” with graduate degrees in biochemistry, cell biology and physiology.

The bilge you just posted - a bunch of physicians calling themselves the American Academy of Environmental Science - are as bad as or worse than the “snake-oil salesmen” you decry.

I will TRUST a physician ONLY after asking him scientific questions before he lays a finger on me.

Physicians are not researchers, they are “readers”, they are anything but credible scientists unless they spend a lot of time in the laboratory, and foreswear the big bucks.

I could dissect the bilge in the first item I read IF I THOUGHT THE FIRST ITEM was of any value.

I suspect I will now be subjected to the babbling of buffoons who know little about science who trust physicians to be on top of “cutting edge” science

I suspect I will now be subjected to the babbling of buffoons who know little about science who trust physicians to be on top of “cutting edge” science

You still make no sense, my friend.

And let’s not get personal here - I couldn’t care less about your background.

Logically, if I shouldn’t trust MDs (whether I actually do or do not is irrelevant to this discussion), I should trust a journalist even LESS, as a journalist has absolutely NO knowledge of anything even related to health or science. In fact, Specter was covering Chechnya 10 years ago, why is he writing about nutrition now? The people that wrote the article I quoted, are medical doctors, and given their background I would rather trust them, than some guy who took an arts degree.

Why should he be trusted to provide health advice?

Next, vitamins are not needed, he tells me. This is news to me. Does he have any real scientific studies to back up this claim? Or is it his opinion?
If you are a scientist, as you claim to be, you should try to get to the bottom of his ridiculous claims, but then again, it’s up to you. I choose not to listen to a journalist when it comes to MY health.

Re: pesticides, he seems to think that they are OK to consume. I guess he hasn’t heard that pesticides are poisonous, again, this has been proven by science. Actually, pesticides do their job so well, precisely BECAUSE they are poisonous. That’s why, when they are sprayed, it’s not recommended to be around. Because they are poisonous. DDT is poisonous. You can argue here as much as you want, but these are facts.

Interestingly enough, this was posted today
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/us-bans-health-risk-pesticide-endosulfan/story-e6frg8y6-1225884027864

I watched the interview last night on Colbert report and it would be clear to anyone with brains in their head that Michael Specter is sleeping with the corporate pharmaceutical industry- simply speaking, he is a whore. Let’s see - he wants you to be logical. Fair enough - I am, and that’s why for me someone with the journalism degree is no authority when it comes to my health. He has an arts degree, degree that teaches you how to write (BS mostly), not a health or a science degree, so listening to him when it comes to your nutrition is idiotic at best. Moving on.

Pesticides has been proven by SCIENCE (yes the same science he wants you to trust ) to have a multitude of nasty effects on your body (cancer is one of them, tsk tsk, yes I am looking at you - that poster who doubts that his friend got cancer from DDT - looky here http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071009082406.htm).

—————————————
Slateblue,

The color of my car!!

I won’t waste any time on you because ... it would be wasteful.

Lots of chemicals have been classified as “potential/probable carcinogens” based on work with lab animals given massive doses of the chemicals.

But just as the LD50 tests proved worthless in predicting threats to human health, I defy you to provide a single case of a “potential carcinogen” causing cancer in humans.
———————————————————————-
I’m limiting your work to agricultural chemicals and leaving out asbestos and dioxin, the latter having caused cancer in a small number of workers in direct contact with high levels of dioxin synthesis.

I’ll wait. :zip:

I will TRUST a physician ONLY after asking him scientific questions before he lays a finger on me.

but yet, you seem to trust Specter, who lacks ANY scientific training.

Nice done:)

I will TRUST a physician ONLY after asking him scientific questions before he lays a finger on me.

but yet, you seem to trust Specter, who lacks ANY scientific training.

Nice done:)

Spector is a Gore is an Ehrlich is a nobody!

I know what he is and agree he is another wretch getting rich on the trust of undereducated laymen.

Some human types are born to be skeptics, but far too many are born to cheat, lie and steal.
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There really is no difference in lack of qualifications between a Gore and a Spector.

Drop your arrogance, please - your attitude is not going to play any role in this argument.

Let’s stay on the topic, shall we.

Specter claims that pesticides are safe, science says otherwise. As a scientist, I am sure, you are aware of pesticides’ health risks.

Yes, everything can be poison, (even water).  Pesticides have already been declared as poisonous substances, whether they cause cancer in your or me or you neighbour will vary - everyone is different. But nevertheless, they are poisonous, and logically, one should try to consume less of them, not more, like Specter tells you.

The point is here, that this guy is deceiving the general public. The same general public that trusts people like him, and listens to every word the media has said.

I will TRUST a physician ONLY after asking him scientific questions before he lays a finger on me.

but yet, you seem to trust Specter, who lacks ANY scientific training.

Nice done:)

Spector is a Gore is an Ehrlich is a nobody!

I know what he is and agree he is another wretch getting rich on the trust of undereducated laymen.

Some human types are born to be skeptics, but far too many are born to cheat, lie and steal.
———————————————————————
There really is no difference in lack of qualifications between a Gore and a Spector.

i am glad you are able to see that

I’m glad that you see what I KNOW!!

How’s that for arrogance?? :-)

People accused Mohammed Ali of arrogance. He and I both deserve the label because we are both capable of PROVING what we claim! ;-)

I’m ambivalent about replying or even paying attention to crude and blustering posters. I’m the one mentioned as doubting DDT caused my friend’s cancer. The poster refers me to a second hand popular account of one study that suggests a link but also indicates conclusions are premature. What I actually said was that it seemed odd she would suspect parts per billion of agricultural pesticides ahead of pounds of illegal drugs complete with unknown contaminants and adulterants. And I said DDT was rapidly embraced because it is so much safer than what it replaced. I stand by both remarks.

In response to knuckleheaded comments, I tend to stick closely to the evidence I’ve found.

Chill out, fella!! I agree with you 100%.

So many die of malaria - mostly children - that the DDT declaimers may be seen as lacking any compassion.

So that all THEIR food can be artificial-chemical free and they can live longer cancer-free.

Convinced that their “natural” food contains nothing that could cause harm

Based on nothing but the sermonizing of so-called “nutritionists”.

Who feed mostly on FEAR!! Other peoples’ fear!!

I should add that for all the fear-mongering, people have a birth-to-death average lifespan of 77 years, woman alone, 83.

And so-called “organic” food has not had a dam thing to do with it. Nor has smoking, drinking, cholesterol intake, and even wars lessened that ever increasing lifespan.

And the USA population hasn’t the longest lifespan among other peoples of the world - especially those countries with more homogeneous populations such as Japan, Europe and the Scandanavian countries.
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Argue reasons for those statistics while you’re chewing bark and twigs to add fiber to your diets.

rg, the organic food industry has been plagued with E. coli 0157, primarily because of it’s use of organic fertilizer, especially the spinach.

And your point is?

Ecoli has been found in Maple Leaf meat (not organic) here in Canada. Does that mean we should stop eating meat then?

I am sorry but you make no sense whatsoever…or are you only noticing the faults of organic industry and not conventional one?

Nope, don’t get me started on the ‘conventional’ industry. I am only pointing out that the ‘organic’ industry is far from flawless.